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Jun. 28th, 2016 07:51 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
splinteredstarOkay, this is gonna be one of those posts where I rant about things on tumblr but don't post about it there because I don't feel like opening up that can of snakes. (For those of you who are on both: as always, if I have the opportunity, this is something I would address personally. I do not vaugeblog. This is about social trends, not individuals.)
This is about a very specific trend in SW: TFA discourse, one that annoys the hell out of me.
For context, as with any young white villain, there has been a swell of fans who argue that whatever he did wasn't really his fault. Because of brainwashing, coercion, abuse, etc. There then is the answering swell of people who object to this, and respond with arguments that no, the villain is a monster and what he did is unjustifiable, often with the subtext that the apologists only are so because of Some Social Force. In TFA in particular, there is Finn - who is a foil to Kylo Ren on many of the issues of agency and responsibility.
This has led to people using Finn as a means of refusing arguments about Kylo, or as a sort of competition - Finn broke free of his conditioning, so Kylo has no excuse. Finn shows signs of mental illness, so Kylo Ren's mental illness shouldn't resonate with people. Why would you identify with Kylo when you have Finn? (I have ranted about this Before http://splinteredstar.dreamwidth.org/129335.html )
(I am not getting any where /near/ FinnRey vs Reylo, fyi. Parially because I ship Kylux, and also I feel like it's a red herring in this case. Rey's significance is not determined by who she is paired up with, and certainly deserves better than to be a trophy to whomever is the Better Character.)
(Also, at no point am I arguing that Kylo Ren's actions are excusable or justified. While I personally would be very invested in a redemption arc, saying that he has done nothing wrong would negate the need for one. Also, that is not the point I am trying to make here. )
I, for the record, find /both/ of these characters compelling. I think they're both important thematically and am very interested in the parallels between them. Issues of agency and choice are My Deal, and the fact that the movie is so explicit about it makes me a very happy Star. I like them both, for different reasons.
Which is why I get so grumbly when someone uses Finn as an alternative to Kylo, as if they're just different versions of the same character. And that's a disservice to /both/ characters. They are not equivalent, and pretending that they are mangles both of their characterizations.
Let's talk about the agency thing first, as that is the most obvious and important mirroring. Yes, Finn has broken free of his conditioning and Kylo has not. Finn has made the choice to leave and Kylo made the choice to stay. Finn found a way to escape where there was none, and when Kylo was given a way out he refused it. The parallel is very clear and very important! Kylo had the choice and he made the wrong one, and that's vital to acknowledge. A good exploration of agency and guilt involves /more/ complexity, not less. (The phrase I have used before is "finding the place between puppets and monsters".)
But the form this is normally presented in... Even holding the conditioning and abuse equal (which it most certainly wasn't, considering their different positions and Kylo's force ability), claiming that one abuse victim escaping invalidates the another remaining makes me incredibly uncomfortable. It's victim blaming, at the very least - "that other person was able to leave, so it's your own fault for staying."
And let there be no mistake - what Finn did was /extraordinary/.
Finn ran, knowing that his chances of survival were close to zero. Finn ran, not knowing if there was anywhere to run to, only concerned about the "away". Finn was exceptionally brave and strong and lucky. A hundred other troopers could have looked at the same situation, weighed their chances, and considered it not worth the risk. And it have would been fair. Saying that anyone - even Kylo - could have done what Finn did makes what he did into something easy and inevitable. And that devalues Finn's actions at the same time as it blames anyone who wasn't able to do what he did.
(He was able to do it, why can't you? That other girl left her partner, but you haven't, so yours must not be too bad. That other kid is able to work through their anxiety, why are you making a fuss over yours? Someone else can do it, so you should be able to, and if you can't it's because you don't want to. It's /your fault/. )
Now, onto the mental illness issue. Many people - myself and friends among them - identify with Kylo Ren because of his symptoms of mental illness. His lack of emotional control and wildly swinging moods, his insecurity and overcompensating, the sensation of being "torn apart" - all of these things are familiar to those with particular mental illnesses. Likewise, the Otherness that comes with being a force user, the sense of being in a world that no one else experiences and which you cannot explain to others - I feel it pretty deep in my chest. Diagnoses vary, but Bipolar, BPD, and related are popular. (A personal favorite fic writes him as Autism spectrum.)
Some people have noticed this tendency to identify with Kylo Ren's mental illness and neurodivergence, and suggest that people should be identifying with Finn instead, pointing to signs of Finn having an anxiety disorder.
Aside from the already icky "your feelings are invalid" involved in telling someone who they should or shouldn't identify with, I will say this very simply:
Mental illnesses are not interchangeable. While there are some factors in common, the experiences of someone with a given neurodivergence is not going to be the same as someone with a different one. Saying two characters who fall into the same general category count the same for representation only works on the barest of definitions.
Even the social forces of oppression are not equivalent. I have an anxiety disorder and psychosis. And I will say without hesitation that society's reaction to the psychosis is /much/ worse. Anxiety is terrible, but no one is afraid of me for it. A character with signs of an anxiety disorder may be considered a weakling or a burden, but hallucinations and intrusive thoughts are narrative warning signs for a serial killer. BPD are considered manipulators and Bipolar people are thought unstable. Anxiety makes me feel like a weakling. Intrusive thoughts make me feel like a monster.
Kylo Ren shows all the signs of the 'scary' mental illnesses. The ones that make people afraid of me. The ones that make me afraid of myself. I can't just slot in a different character and get the same emotional resonance. And saying that I should displays, at best, a complete misunderstanding of the nature of my experience, and an unwillingness to learn better.
And it annoys the hell out of me. And depresses me. Depends on the day.
So. Yes. tl;dr stop using finn to argue about kylo, internet
This is about a very specific trend in SW: TFA discourse, one that annoys the hell out of me.
For context, as with any young white villain, there has been a swell of fans who argue that whatever he did wasn't really his fault. Because of brainwashing, coercion, abuse, etc. There then is the answering swell of people who object to this, and respond with arguments that no, the villain is a monster and what he did is unjustifiable, often with the subtext that the apologists only are so because of Some Social Force. In TFA in particular, there is Finn - who is a foil to Kylo Ren on many of the issues of agency and responsibility.
This has led to people using Finn as a means of refusing arguments about Kylo, or as a sort of competition - Finn broke free of his conditioning, so Kylo has no excuse. Finn shows signs of mental illness, so Kylo Ren's mental illness shouldn't resonate with people. Why would you identify with Kylo when you have Finn? (I have ranted about this Before http://splinteredstar.dreamwidth.org/129335.html )
(I am not getting any where /near/ FinnRey vs Reylo, fyi. Parially because I ship Kylux, and also I feel like it's a red herring in this case. Rey's significance is not determined by who she is paired up with, and certainly deserves better than to be a trophy to whomever is the Better Character.)
(Also, at no point am I arguing that Kylo Ren's actions are excusable or justified. While I personally would be very invested in a redemption arc, saying that he has done nothing wrong would negate the need for one. Also, that is not the point I am trying to make here. )
I, for the record, find /both/ of these characters compelling. I think they're both important thematically and am very interested in the parallels between them. Issues of agency and choice are My Deal, and the fact that the movie is so explicit about it makes me a very happy Star. I like them both, for different reasons.
Which is why I get so grumbly when someone uses Finn as an alternative to Kylo, as if they're just different versions of the same character. And that's a disservice to /both/ characters. They are not equivalent, and pretending that they are mangles both of their characterizations.
Let's talk about the agency thing first, as that is the most obvious and important mirroring. Yes, Finn has broken free of his conditioning and Kylo has not. Finn has made the choice to leave and Kylo made the choice to stay. Finn found a way to escape where there was none, and when Kylo was given a way out he refused it. The parallel is very clear and very important! Kylo had the choice and he made the wrong one, and that's vital to acknowledge. A good exploration of agency and guilt involves /more/ complexity, not less. (The phrase I have used before is "finding the place between puppets and monsters".)
But the form this is normally presented in... Even holding the conditioning and abuse equal (which it most certainly wasn't, considering their different positions and Kylo's force ability), claiming that one abuse victim escaping invalidates the another remaining makes me incredibly uncomfortable. It's victim blaming, at the very least - "that other person was able to leave, so it's your own fault for staying."
And let there be no mistake - what Finn did was /extraordinary/.
Finn ran, knowing that his chances of survival were close to zero. Finn ran, not knowing if there was anywhere to run to, only concerned about the "away". Finn was exceptionally brave and strong and lucky. A hundred other troopers could have looked at the same situation, weighed their chances, and considered it not worth the risk. And it have would been fair. Saying that anyone - even Kylo - could have done what Finn did makes what he did into something easy and inevitable. And that devalues Finn's actions at the same time as it blames anyone who wasn't able to do what he did.
(He was able to do it, why can't you? That other girl left her partner, but you haven't, so yours must not be too bad. That other kid is able to work through their anxiety, why are you making a fuss over yours? Someone else can do it, so you should be able to, and if you can't it's because you don't want to. It's /your fault/. )
Now, onto the mental illness issue. Many people - myself and friends among them - identify with Kylo Ren because of his symptoms of mental illness. His lack of emotional control and wildly swinging moods, his insecurity and overcompensating, the sensation of being "torn apart" - all of these things are familiar to those with particular mental illnesses. Likewise, the Otherness that comes with being a force user, the sense of being in a world that no one else experiences and which you cannot explain to others - I feel it pretty deep in my chest. Diagnoses vary, but Bipolar, BPD, and related are popular. (A personal favorite fic writes him as Autism spectrum.)
Some people have noticed this tendency to identify with Kylo Ren's mental illness and neurodivergence, and suggest that people should be identifying with Finn instead, pointing to signs of Finn having an anxiety disorder.
Aside from the already icky "your feelings are invalid" involved in telling someone who they should or shouldn't identify with, I will say this very simply:
Mental illnesses are not interchangeable. While there are some factors in common, the experiences of someone with a given neurodivergence is not going to be the same as someone with a different one. Saying two characters who fall into the same general category count the same for representation only works on the barest of definitions.
Even the social forces of oppression are not equivalent. I have an anxiety disorder and psychosis. And I will say without hesitation that society's reaction to the psychosis is /much/ worse. Anxiety is terrible, but no one is afraid of me for it. A character with signs of an anxiety disorder may be considered a weakling or a burden, but hallucinations and intrusive thoughts are narrative warning signs for a serial killer. BPD are considered manipulators and Bipolar people are thought unstable. Anxiety makes me feel like a weakling. Intrusive thoughts make me feel like a monster.
Kylo Ren shows all the signs of the 'scary' mental illnesses. The ones that make people afraid of me. The ones that make me afraid of myself. I can't just slot in a different character and get the same emotional resonance. And saying that I should displays, at best, a complete misunderstanding of the nature of my experience, and an unwillingness to learn better.
And it annoys the hell out of me. And depresses me. Depends on the day.
So. Yes. tl;dr stop using finn to argue about kylo, internet
no subject
Date: 2016-06-29 02:09 am (UTC)I mean, really, all of this is completely on point. I'd feel like a broken record just going through agreeing with everything.
Fuck fandom.
no subject
Date: 2016-07-01 04:03 am (UTC)Honestly, I feel like setting two characters against each other is dumb, anyway. As if one is the "correct" choice and the other isn't.
Especially since I love both of them, and am fascinated in them as a /set/ - and they serve distinct emotional purposes. (I talk about this in one of the other rants I've posted in the last couple of months - Finn is the days where I am strong enough to overpower my illnesses and Kylo is when I am not. Finn reminds me that it is possible for me to win against my own mind; Kylo reminds me that I still deserve to exist even when I lose.) Trying to slot out one for the other is like. Being on a diet that requires a certain amount of fat and someone telling you that you should eat more low fat foods. It's like, yes, I get the point you're trying to make, but I am /doing this for a reason/.
I mean, villain apologists can be terrible and tiresome and minimize the harm the characters have done. "Cool motive, still murder" as the gif goes. But it is possible to swing things too far the other way. It is possible to have too little sympathy for a villain, as much as it is to have too much.
Fandom sometimes does great things! and sometimes it is terrible. (the terrible sticks out more)